(This idea comes what what we’ve heard here in this community as well as from other customer feedback methods we utilize. The feedback we gather here will help us gauge how well it fits our users’ needs. Please let us know what you think)
The Problem:
The Dark UI for Camtasia does not appeal to everybody and for some, it makes working in Camtasia unproductive due to issues with contrast and text legibility.
Potential Solution:
An option in Camtasia to choose a lighter UI or choose your UI color.
The Problem:
The Dark UI for Camtasia does not appeal to everybody and for some, it makes working in Camtasia unproductive due to issues with contrast and text legibility.
Potential Solution:
An option in Camtasia to choose a lighter UI or choose your UI color.
David D, Technical Product Manager - Camtasia
Posted 3 years ago
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
I’m nervous about kicking this hornets nest, but here goes. Please keep in mind that I took over as the Camtasia Technical Product Manager in July of 2018. I’ve been with TechSmith for a very long time and was aware of this long running thread, but I didn’t make or influence any of the decisions prior to July. That’s not an excuse, just an explanation that my analysis and decisions about product priority started fairly recently. I started as a developer on Camtasia back in 2005 and am enormously proud of the team and product. That said, I know we can always do better.
Some things to make clear here:
#1 We read these posts frequently. It’s not fun to see users expressing this much pain and frustration, ever. It puts a bad taste in everyones mouth. As a product team we want to make software that helps users make a difference. We’re a super passionate group and we want our customers to love using the product.
#2 In March of 2018, we adjusted the UI contrast on Windows in a maintenance release to Camtasia 9 as a direct result of this feedback. Camtasia 2019 for Mac will ship with similar improvements to contrast (I’m very appreciative of those changes as a predominantly Mac user who spends a ton of time staring at a screen). The point being that during the last 12 months we’ve been making an effort to improve things for users on the UI contrast front.
#3 The dark UI polls very well among users. The vast majority of the users we’ve surveyed either prefer it or don’t have a problem with it. I’m not saying we are ignoring you folks who don't like it, but there’s a very large contingent of users who would prefer us to do work in other areas.
#4 Camtasia sits on several different UI technology stacks and the codebase has been actively developed against for ~20 years. It’s not easy to turn desktop UI with that kind of code legacy on a dime. I’m saying this because the decision to focus on a light UI will mean less work on other features and that makes most of our users less happy. I hope folks can at least see the position we’re in, recognize the tradeoffs and come to a reasonable understanding that our decisions aren’t based on how little we listen or care for our users.
#4 I’m a bit uncertain what’s a good enough compromise to win over folks on this thread. Some folks seem to want a myriad of color choices they can choose from, others want something that looks more native, still others just want something not quite so dark with good contrast. I’m not in favor of a complete UI overhaul at this point. That would be a significant undertaking we just don’t have the bandwidth to do (always be leery of full UI rewrites is a principle I hold dear).
#5 I think we’re in a bit better position from a UX and technical perspective to deliver a lighter colored UI in the future. I’ll be looking for opportunities to fit it in, but our current 12 month schedule is very tight, so I can’t make any guarantees.
So the million dollar question—would a lighter UI that you could toggle to and required a restart be enough? If so, that's what I'll be attempting to scope and angle toward in the future.
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
Some things to make clear here:
#1 We read these posts frequently. It’s not fun to see users expressing this much pain and frustration, ever. It puts a bad taste in everyones mouth. As a product team we want to make software that helps users make a difference. We’re a super passionate group and we want our customers to love using the product.
#2 In March of 2018, we adjusted the UI contrast on Windows in a maintenance release to Camtasia 9 as a direct result of this feedback. Camtasia 2019 for Mac will ship with similar improvements to contrast (I’m very appreciative of those changes as a predominantly Mac user who spends a ton of time staring at a screen). The point being that during the last 12 months we’ve been making an effort to improve things for users on the UI contrast front.
#3 The dark UI polls very well among users. The vast majority of the users we’ve surveyed either prefer it or don’t have a problem with it. I’m not saying we are ignoring you folks who don't like it, but there’s a very large contingent of users who would prefer us to do work in other areas.
#4 Camtasia sits on several different UI technology stacks and the codebase has been actively developed against for ~20 years. It’s not easy to turn desktop UI with that kind of code legacy on a dime. I’m saying this because the decision to focus on a light UI will mean less work on other features and that makes most of our users less happy. I hope folks can at least see the position we’re in, recognize the tradeoffs and come to a reasonable understanding that our decisions aren’t based on how little we listen or care for our users.
#4 I’m a bit uncertain what’s a good enough compromise to win over folks on this thread. Some folks seem to want a myriad of color choices they can choose from, others want something that looks more native, still others just want something not quite so dark with good contrast. I’m not in favor of a complete UI overhaul at this point. That would be a significant undertaking we just don’t have the bandwidth to do (always be leery of full UI rewrites is a principle I hold dear).
#5 I think we’re in a bit better position from a UX and technical perspective to deliver a lighter colored UI in the future. I’ll be looking for opportunities to fit it in, but our current 12 month schedule is very tight, so I can’t make any guarantees.
So the million dollar question—would a lighter UI that you could toggle to and required a restart be enough? If so, that's what I'll be attempting to scope and angle toward in the future.
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
(Edited)
kayakman, Champion
thanks for your candid insight, Brooks
the contrast changes made in 9 and 2018, compared to original 9, have been a big improvement from my perspective
I do not mind the dark look as long as there is excellent contrast available on the various controls; in 2018, there are still some problem areas:
very poor contrast in canvas settings dropdown for a selected/hover over item;
bright blue marker flags with white micro font are impossible to read [at least for my eyes];
set-hotspot-properties controls and quiz QI are just too small [font size and text box width] to work with on a concentrated basis; I find working with them very fatiguing and eye straining; re quizzes, I now develop all the quiz stuff outside of Camtasia and then copy/paste as I can't reasonably work with the current controls
most selected text in these controls is almost unreadable because the selection back color is not sufficiently contrasted with the original text
if I only had a 40" monitor ... ?
If you only have limited bandwidth, I'd prefer to see the current dark UI "tweaked" where appropriate and practical
I will admit that I often miss CS8's UI look, as I always found it to be very easy on the eyes, and most of its controls gave you adequate room to get the job done
the contrast changes made in 9 and 2018, compared to original 9, have been a big improvement from my perspective
I do not mind the dark look as long as there is excellent contrast available on the various controls; in 2018, there are still some problem areas:
very poor contrast in canvas settings dropdown for a selected/hover over item;
bright blue marker flags with white micro font are impossible to read [at least for my eyes];
set-hotspot-properties controls and quiz QI are just too small [font size and text box width] to work with on a concentrated basis; I find working with them very fatiguing and eye straining; re quizzes, I now develop all the quiz stuff outside of Camtasia and then copy/paste as I can't reasonably work with the current controls
most selected text in these controls is almost unreadable because the selection back color is not sufficiently contrasted with the original text
if I only had a 40" monitor ... ?
If you only have limited bandwidth, I'd prefer to see the current dark UI "tweaked" where appropriate and practical
I will admit that I often miss CS8's UI look, as I always found it to be very easy on the eyes, and most of its controls gave you adequate room to get the job done
Brooks,
Thanks for your quick reply and helpful explanation! As a web developer myself, I empathize with the tricky task of juggling priorities and trying to please as many users as possible.
I'm intrigued that most users like the dark interface. If you have a moment, could you explain briefly why? (I don't doubt that they do, I'd just like to understand. Maybe I'm overlooking the benefits.)
To answer your question, I'd be thrilled with just a simple toggle choice, similar to the one in Snagit:
Thanks again for the quick response and explanation!
Kathryn
Thanks for your quick reply and helpful explanation! As a web developer myself, I empathize with the tricky task of juggling priorities and trying to please as many users as possible.
I'm intrigued that most users like the dark interface. If you have a moment, could you explain briefly why? (I don't doubt that they do, I'd just like to understand. Maybe I'm overlooking the benefits.)
To answer your question, I'd be thrilled with just a simple toggle choice, similar to the one in Snagit:
Thanks again for the quick response and explanation!
Kathryn
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Information is key. Up until now all I would see is "we are working on it". But your explanation is excellent. Thank you.
I have been a user for over a decade and I just want to feel like opinions matter to TS. This post from Brooks is a huge step in the right direction.
I too am in software development. I absolutely understand that UI changes can be very, very tricky. We just revamped our interface after 30 years. Yep, you read that right, 30 years. The only way we weren't inundated with crabby users complaining was communication.
To be able to switch between light and dark, like reddit, would be key. It would make me very happy.
Thanks again Brooks for the post. PLEASE keep us updated.
PS - Karyn, thank you for letting me know I am not the only one wishing for Captivate. You are so right about the amount of software in the CC I will never, ever use. I wish Captivate was an option to switch out. But I think you are right. Brooks post (Sorry to talk about you in the third person Brooks) kind of changes things. This seems like a step by TS to include user feedback more in the development road map.
I have been a user for over a decade and I just want to feel like opinions matter to TS. This post from Brooks is a huge step in the right direction.
I too am in software development. I absolutely understand that UI changes can be very, very tricky. We just revamped our interface after 30 years. Yep, you read that right, 30 years. The only way we weren't inundated with crabby users complaining was communication.
To be able to switch between light and dark, like reddit, would be key. It would make me very happy.
Thanks again Brooks for the post. PLEASE keep us updated.
PS - Karyn, thank you for letting me know I am not the only one wishing for Captivate. You are so right about the amount of software in the CC I will never, ever use. I wish Captivate was an option to switch out. But I think you are right. Brooks post (Sorry to talk about you in the third person Brooks) kind of changes things. This seems like a step by TS to include user feedback more in the development road map.
(Edited)
Just a reminder to anyone reading this who is a federal or state government employee: This product violates the Section 508 accessibility standards, which require software and applications purchased by any entity receiving federal funding to have a minimum color contrast ratio of 4.5. (These are also the same standards used in Canada, UK, EU and Australia.)
https://webaim.org/articles/contrast/
Still hoping for a day when I can legally upgrade from Camtasia 7.
https://webaim.org/articles/contrast/
Still hoping for a day when I can legally upgrade from Camtasia 7.
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Hey Donna, if you have examples of UI contrast not meeting WCAG guidelines please reach out to me via email b [dot] andrus [at] techsmith [dot] com. I'll pass them on to our UX team. My understanding is the adjustments we made brought Camtasia into AA compliance with that standard.
By the way, for other people in conversation, I did as Brooks asked when he asked, and have heard only crickets in return.
Andy, Senior User Experience Designer
Hey folks,
I’m one of the UX designers on Camtasia. I have been working on some UI color changes that are focused on addressing some issues in this thread and I would love to get your feedback! This will require you to be able to install a version of Camtasia (Windows only) and submit some feedback in a survey.
If you are interested in participating please fill out this short form: https://forms.gle/TGXuh5DcFeLiVnjw6
Thanks!
Andy
I’m one of the UX designers on Camtasia. I have been working on some UI color changes that are focused on addressing some issues in this thread and I would love to get your feedback! This will require you to be able to install a version of Camtasia (Windows only) and submit some feedback in a survey.
If you are interested in participating please fill out this short form: https://forms.gle/TGXuh5DcFeLiVnjw6
Thanks!
Andy
(Edited)
Andy, Senior User Experience Designer
We currently don't have enough participants signed up to perform an accurate study. I need at least 3 more people to sign up. If installing a build of Camtasia is an issue, I can run this study by just showing screenshots. Please fill out the survey and just indicate you can't install a build, if that works better for you.
Thanks,
Andy
Thanks,
Andy
Thanks, for the reminder, Andy. I signed up a few minutes ago. I'm currently using Camtasia 8. Will the download interfere with that?
Hey Andy, I filled out the form but I dont know that I heard back. How do I know if I made the cut?
In my case, it's not the build that's the issue. It's signing an NDA.
The NDA is also preventing me from signing up.
Curious about folks having issues with the NDA.
Does that mean some aspect of the NDA page isn't working for you or just that you have philosophical issues with signing it?
Does that mean some aspect of the NDA page isn't working for you or just that you have philosophical issues with signing it?
I would love to participate but I do my work on a Mac. I do have a home computer that's windows which I could use. Do you provide a separate Windows version that I could install without a license for that?
I had forgotten about it, but filled out the form this morning; have not heard back yet. I certainly want to be a part of this! thank you
I signed the NDA and agreed to participate 5 days ago. Hope this gets going ASAP!
Andy, Senior User Experience Designer
Just a quick update on the study. We are going to be getting it started next week, we just need to squash a few crash bugs in the test build and finalize the survey. I’m also hoping to get a few more people in in the study, if possible. Thank you to all of those that have signed up!
Andy
I just updated to Camtasia 2019 and the first thing I did was try to find a way to change to a light background. Unless I missed something, it doesn't look like this discussion resulted in a lighter option for this release. If I did miss it, please point me in the right direction.
You missed nothing, there is no light UI options.
As Joe said, there is no such option. TechSmith doesn’t care how this affects their customers and ignored the requests. :(
Sadly, they already have your money. This is the reason why I have no upgraded and sought out and found alternative solutions.
Well, phoo. I've used Camtasia for at least 12 years, and Snagit for almost 20. Just upgraded Camtasia from v.8. I'll use it, but I'm wondering whether the upgrade was a mistake. The dark mode really grates on me. Andy, are you still there? What was the outcome of the UX study from last spring?
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If anybody from the TechSmith team is still monitoring this thread
David D, Technical Product Manager - Camtasia
Andy, Senior User Experience Designer
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
I would really like to know whether any more thought has been given to providing a UI option. As requested above by your team I would like to tone down my vehemence, frustration, anger, flaming , etc so that you will pay attention to our plight.
There are many people (including myself, medical educator, age 69) who are having difficulty with Camtasia 2019 because of the decreased contrast, and even the default editing color choices (not long ago I discovered that your "white" font is really light gray).
It would be nice to know that this issue has not been forgotten or shelved by the design team.
And it would be really nice to have someone respond to the people on this thread. Brooks, are you still reading the thread? How is the bad taste in your mouth? (your post from 11 months ago)
I have noticed no change in UI colors in any of the v.2019 product.
Andy, Senior User Experience Designer
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
I would really like to know whether any more thought has been given to providing a UI option. As requested above by your team I would like to tone down my vehemence, frustration, anger, flaming , etc so that you will pay attention to our plight.
There are many people (including myself, medical educator, age 69) who are having difficulty with Camtasia 2019 because of the decreased contrast, and even the default editing color choices (not long ago I discovered that your "white" font is really light gray).
It would be nice to know that this issue has not been forgotten or shelved by the design team.
And it would be really nice to have someone respond to the people on this thread. Brooks, are you still reading the thread? How is the bad taste in your mouth? (your post from 11 months ago)
I have noticed no change in UI colors in any of the v.2019 product.
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Hello Muscle Whisperer,
We are indeed monitoring this thread.
First I want you to know, I totally get it. I'm fast approaching 50 and the eagle eyes of my youth have really started to recede. My personal view is that in some cases our fonts are too small. And while we made adjustments a year and a half ago to bring the contrast levels up to standards, I agree that ramping up the brightness of the text on Windows even further would help (not everyone agrees with that assessment, but it's my own personal view). I have that view about a lot of software these days, but it’s not a majority opinion. I’ve never had a problem with the dark UI—every video editor I’ve used has been dark because of the prevailing desire to make the content the focus of attention and not taint color perception.
This thread is really splintered into multiple viewpoints which has made it difficult to navigate. A large part of this thread seems to originally have been a backlash about the "dark" chrome used throughout the UI. I should point out that the major UI redesign happened with Camtasia 9 (August 2016) and the actual color of the chrome is lighter than the Camtasia 8 chrome. Nevertheless, some folks don't like the dark UI. Another camp didn't originally like the contrast of text and some UI elements. We responded to these concerns and shipped updates with improved industry standard contrast guidelines in place in 2018. Some folks think the fonts are just too small. Other folks have latched onto this thread as an example of how TechSmith doesn’t listen to concerns in these forums and while not concerned about this particular issue have upvoted in support of it.
Fast forward to the spring / summer of 2019 one of the team’s UX designers prototyped changes which would introduce a middle of the road gray UI option which would address the concerns of the folks in the dark UI camp. We decided to run a research test on this and solicited for folks in this thread who would be willing to participate. We initially got three volunteers, solicited again and finally got six folks willing to participate in the test. The results of the test were negative. Half the folks were neutral and the other half splintered saying it did nothing to address their concerns (split between wanting a full white UI and much higher contrast).
I was left with a puzzling problem. Very low participation indicating low interest and participants who were not going to be happy with a middle ground and doable approach in the near term (I favor iterative approaches in general). Full UI rewrites are expensive. It means we’d spend most of our time working on overhauling the UI and when we do that all kind of things can go wrong (we’ve spent a ton of effort over the last four years adding back in things that were left behind or overlooked in the last UI overhaul). It also means we aren’t focusing on the things that the majority of folks are asking us to solve. It’s a balancing game and it means not everyone is going to be happy. I’ll be the first to admit that sometimes I get it wrong. I can tell you though that our team cares a lot. We read threads, listen to customers, do serious analysis and try our best to make an amazing piece of software.
I also speak to a larger number of customers throughout the year (hundreds of phone calls / interviews a year) and meet on a weekly basis with our Tech Support and Customer Representatives to listen to concerns being raised by customers with them. We also do thousands of surveys with trial users who both purchase and don’t purchase the product. So there’s a lot of points of feedback that I’m seeing. I can tell you that In the 18 months I’ve been leading the product the only places I see / hear feedback about this are in this thread. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen or empathize, but it does give me perspective about the problems people are having and what folks are asking for.
I do think it’s an entirely reasonable request to increase the color contrast of labels in our our main editor UI. I had the Mac team do something similar over the summer and I think it helped a lot. I’ll push for that to happen on Windows . I’m not going to make a promise on a date, or promise it’s going to go back several versions of the product. We already have ideas in the hopper about iteratively updating the UI and I think you will see some of that slowly roll out over time in new versions. I’ll keep watching, listening and soliciting feedback on our UI in all the different mediums we use to engage and talk with users and we’ll push forward with what we learn. I’ll also make it a point (already have in the last two days as a result of this thread) to continue to talk to our UX team about how we could improve our legibility.
I definitely want to thank you for pushing and challenging us. It’s the same thing we do with each other on a daily basis. We know the product isn’t perfect and we are always working on improving it. Maybe this isn’t what you wanted to hear, but I thought it worth the time to provide some context.
Best,
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
We are indeed monitoring this thread.
First I want you to know, I totally get it. I'm fast approaching 50 and the eagle eyes of my youth have really started to recede. My personal view is that in some cases our fonts are too small. And while we made adjustments a year and a half ago to bring the contrast levels up to standards, I agree that ramping up the brightness of the text on Windows even further would help (not everyone agrees with that assessment, but it's my own personal view). I have that view about a lot of software these days, but it’s not a majority opinion. I’ve never had a problem with the dark UI—every video editor I’ve used has been dark because of the prevailing desire to make the content the focus of attention and not taint color perception.
This thread is really splintered into multiple viewpoints which has made it difficult to navigate. A large part of this thread seems to originally have been a backlash about the "dark" chrome used throughout the UI. I should point out that the major UI redesign happened with Camtasia 9 (August 2016) and the actual color of the chrome is lighter than the Camtasia 8 chrome. Nevertheless, some folks don't like the dark UI. Another camp didn't originally like the contrast of text and some UI elements. We responded to these concerns and shipped updates with improved industry standard contrast guidelines in place in 2018. Some folks think the fonts are just too small. Other folks have latched onto this thread as an example of how TechSmith doesn’t listen to concerns in these forums and while not concerned about this particular issue have upvoted in support of it.
Fast forward to the spring / summer of 2019 one of the team’s UX designers prototyped changes which would introduce a middle of the road gray UI option which would address the concerns of the folks in the dark UI camp. We decided to run a research test on this and solicited for folks in this thread who would be willing to participate. We initially got three volunteers, solicited again and finally got six folks willing to participate in the test. The results of the test were negative. Half the folks were neutral and the other half splintered saying it did nothing to address their concerns (split between wanting a full white UI and much higher contrast).
I was left with a puzzling problem. Very low participation indicating low interest and participants who were not going to be happy with a middle ground and doable approach in the near term (I favor iterative approaches in general). Full UI rewrites are expensive. It means we’d spend most of our time working on overhauling the UI and when we do that all kind of things can go wrong (we’ve spent a ton of effort over the last four years adding back in things that were left behind or overlooked in the last UI overhaul). It also means we aren’t focusing on the things that the majority of folks are asking us to solve. It’s a balancing game and it means not everyone is going to be happy. I’ll be the first to admit that sometimes I get it wrong. I can tell you though that our team cares a lot. We read threads, listen to customers, do serious analysis and try our best to make an amazing piece of software.
I also speak to a larger number of customers throughout the year (hundreds of phone calls / interviews a year) and meet on a weekly basis with our Tech Support and Customer Representatives to listen to concerns being raised by customers with them. We also do thousands of surveys with trial users who both purchase and don’t purchase the product. So there’s a lot of points of feedback that I’m seeing. I can tell you that In the 18 months I’ve been leading the product the only places I see / hear feedback about this are in this thread. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen or empathize, but it does give me perspective about the problems people are having and what folks are asking for.
I do think it’s an entirely reasonable request to increase the color contrast of labels in our our main editor UI. I had the Mac team do something similar over the summer and I think it helped a lot. I’ll push for that to happen on Windows . I’m not going to make a promise on a date, or promise it’s going to go back several versions of the product. We already have ideas in the hopper about iteratively updating the UI and I think you will see some of that slowly roll out over time in new versions. I’ll keep watching, listening and soliciting feedback on our UI in all the different mediums we use to engage and talk with users and we’ll push forward with what we learn. I’ll also make it a point (already have in the last two days as a result of this thread) to continue to talk to our UX team about how we could improve our legibility.
I definitely want to thank you for pushing and challenging us. It’s the same thing we do with each other on a daily basis. We know the product isn’t perfect and we are always working on improving it. Maybe this isn’t what you wanted to hear, but I thought it worth the time to provide some context.
Best,
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
(Edited)
Dear Brooks,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. From the sound of it you're the right person for the job.
I agree that when you have larger problems facing you, like the "stutter and hang" thread, then the mosquito of gradations of gray in the UI is just an annoyance.
In the meantime I'll get my eyes tested again, and put out $350 for computer-dedicated lenses.
Thanks anyway
Thanks for taking the time to reply. From the sound of it you're the right person for the job.
I agree that when you have larger problems facing you, like the "stutter and hang" thread, then the mosquito of gradations of gray in the UI is just an annoyance.
In the meantime I'll get my eyes tested again, and put out $350 for computer-dedicated lenses.
Thanks anyway
It's true that in Camtasia 2019, most of the colors have been tweaked just enough to squeak past the WCAG 2.0 international standards that are the basis of accessibility lawsuits. Keep in mind that optimal color contrast has a ratio of 21:1 (that's black text on white background, or the reverse). The minimum color contrast allowed under the WCAG accessibility standards is 4.5:1.
Things like the green-on-gray "Properties" button and the gray-on-gray buttons on the Get Started screen ("Video Tutorials" "Webinars" "Academy") have been tweaked to get to 4.6! "Your Media Bin is empty" makes it all the way to 5.4. This still isn't a comfortable reading experience for most people, it's just one that makes it past the minimum allowed before people can legally start complaining.
FYI, the "grayed out" buttons and icons still fail at 2.75. But the one that drives me the most crazy because I actually need them -- the marks on the ruler -- still only clock in at 1.12!
And I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I didn't participate in the study is because, if I remember correctly, you required signing a NDA first.
Donna
(yes, my day job is as an Accessibility Specialist)
Things like the green-on-gray "Properties" button and the gray-on-gray buttons on the Get Started screen ("Video Tutorials" "Webinars" "Academy") have been tweaked to get to 4.6! "Your Media Bin is empty" makes it all the way to 5.4. This still isn't a comfortable reading experience for most people, it's just one that makes it past the minimum allowed before people can legally start complaining.
FYI, the "grayed out" buttons and icons still fail at 2.75. But the one that drives me the most crazy because I actually need them -- the marks on the ruler -- still only clock in at 1.12!
And I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I didn't participate in the study is because, if I remember correctly, you required signing a NDA first.
Donna
(yes, my day job is as an Accessibility Specialist)
Hello Brooks,
I really love Camtasia. That is why I care enough to keep on this. A couple points...
- 11 months ago you said, "“The dark UI polls very well among users. The vast majority of the users we’ve surveyed either prefer it or don’t have a problem with it. “. Then there was the only roundup results I have seen where the UI improvement came in at #3 most requested. Not the vast majority of approval.
- You ended that post with, "“So the million dollar question—would a lighter UI that you could toggle to and required a restart be enough? If so, that's what I'll be attempting to scope and angle toward in the future.”
- You mention in your post about the lack of volunteers for the test. We make money with this stuff and time is key. People do not want to chance downtime because they are trying to run an alpha version. As far as the NDA, well I guess people are weird. (I know I will get dinged for that)
If I may suggest...Lets end this. Run a poll. I dont know what your marketing stack looks like, but maybe you send it out to all users. If you just post in this thread, you will just get us crybabies. Run the poll, post the results. If the UI change scores under, I dont know, the top three, you can use that as the cannon to fire back at the haters. If it scores in the top three, well at that point you have a choice to make.
TBH - I am just tired of fighting about this.
I really love Camtasia. That is why I care enough to keep on this. A couple points...
- 11 months ago you said, "“The dark UI polls very well among users. The vast majority of the users we’ve surveyed either prefer it or don’t have a problem with it. “. Then there was the only roundup results I have seen where the UI improvement came in at #3 most requested. Not the vast majority of approval.
- You ended that post with, "“So the million dollar question—would a lighter UI that you could toggle to and required a restart be enough? If so, that's what I'll be attempting to scope and angle toward in the future.”
- You mention in your post about the lack of volunteers for the test. We make money with this stuff and time is key. People do not want to chance downtime because they are trying to run an alpha version. As far as the NDA, well I guess people are weird. (I know I will get dinged for that)
If I may suggest...Lets end this. Run a poll. I dont know what your marketing stack looks like, but maybe you send it out to all users. If you just post in this thread, you will just get us crybabies. Run the poll, post the results. If the UI change scores under, I dont know, the top three, you can use that as the cannon to fire back at the haters. If it scores in the top three, well at that point you have a choice to make.
TBH - I am just tired of fighting about this.
Brooks,
With respect, my 60-year-old eyes are struggling with the UI. Get some old farts in for testing. Donna.Lettow above has told you what to look for.
And my 40 years of corporate experience can spot a polite corporate blow off a mile away. And unfortunately you just wrote one. Consider just this one sentence:
"I do think it’s an entirely reasonable request to increase the color contrast of labels in our our main editor UI."
Gee, ya think? after 200 people upvote this thread, and the conversation got so heated that your CEO had to step in...18 months ago? WTF?
Now, you want to get angry? Imagine you have shared heartfelt an positive and productive opinions on this thread (and across the rest of the forum) for YEARS, then the product manager writes this:
"I can tell you that In the 18 months I’ve been leading the product the only places I see / hear feedback about this are in this thread. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen or empathize, but it does give me perspective about the problems people are having and what folks are asking for."
Brooks, even if that statement is true, you just told 200 of us we are lying or exaggerating or filling the thread with hyperbole. I don't know which one was your intent, but I don't appreciate any of them.
We love Camtasia, but Techsmith's intransigence on this issue is puzzling, disappointing, and depressing. Please don't defend it or explain it further. Do something.
With respect, my 60-year-old eyes are struggling with the UI. Get some old farts in for testing. Donna.Lettow above has told you what to look for.
And my 40 years of corporate experience can spot a polite corporate blow off a mile away. And unfortunately you just wrote one. Consider just this one sentence:
"I do think it’s an entirely reasonable request to increase the color contrast of labels in our our main editor UI."
Gee, ya think? after 200 people upvote this thread, and the conversation got so heated that your CEO had to step in...18 months ago? WTF?
Now, you want to get angry? Imagine you have shared heartfelt an positive and productive opinions on this thread (and across the rest of the forum) for YEARS, then the product manager writes this:
"I can tell you that In the 18 months I’ve been leading the product the only places I see / hear feedback about this are in this thread. Doesn’t mean I don’t listen or empathize, but it does give me perspective about the problems people are having and what folks are asking for."
Brooks, even if that statement is true, you just told 200 of us we are lying or exaggerating or filling the thread with hyperbole. I don't know which one was your intent, but I don't appreciate any of them.
We love Camtasia, but Techsmith's intransigence on this issue is puzzling, disappointing, and depressing. Please don't defend it or explain it further. Do something.
(I just came back to see if I was being too harsh on Brooks. Yea, it's harsh. But it's true. Sorry.)
One more pile on...wasn’t it posted here that they hired some accessibility expert from Michigan State or Michigan U (same thing)?? It was either a lie or that person dropped the ball, according to the non- compliance issues in the above post.
This, on top of a total blow-off excuse why they can’t put a “silence audio” button in. TechSmith has proven they will tell us whatever it takes to calm us down.
Brooks and whoever else is listening. As soon as an alternative come to market, you won’t have to worry about this thread anymore. I promise.
This, on top of a total blow-off excuse why they can’t put a “silence audio” button in. TechSmith has proven they will tell us whatever it takes to calm us down.
Brooks and whoever else is listening. As soon as an alternative come to market, you won’t have to worry about this thread anymore. I promise.
kayakman, Champion
@ ChrisM
just curious ...
there are already at least 4 ways to silence audio in the Camtasia editor
how would a "silence audio" button help?
just curious ...
there are already at least 4 ways to silence audio in the Camtasia editor
how would a "silence audio" button help?
@ChrisM -- I went to Michigan State and University of Michigan. They're definitely not the same thing. Never heard of Michigan U.
@Brooks -- I'm one of those old farts that davemillman wants to find for testing. Just in case you get another round going.
@kayakman -- At least 4 ways? Although it would be a diversion from the subject of this thread, it would be edifying to know what they are.
How hard would it be to have colors for everything table-driven and totally selectable by the user? I've used software that's done that -- don't ask me what precisely: it's been some years ago and it's not in my current stable. Selectable fonts would be cool, too, but then you run into fonts that just don't fit -- which just means that the user won't -- or shouldn't -- select them.
@Brooks -- I'm one of those old farts that davemillman wants to find for testing. Just in case you get another round going.
@kayakman -- At least 4 ways? Although it would be a diversion from the subject of this thread, it would be edifying to know what they are.
How hard would it be to have colors for everything table-driven and totally selectable by the user? I've used software that's done that -- don't ask me what precisely: it's been some years ago and it's not in my current stable. Selectable fonts would be cool, too, but then you run into fonts that just don't fit -- which just means that the user won't -- or shouldn't -- select them.
kayakman, Champion
The contrast could be better among other things.
I created a mock up replacing all of the fonts and timecode.
I used a font thats more legible than the ones currently used.
I posted it here.........https://feedback.techsmith.com/techsmith/topics/ive-created-a-camtasia-ui-with-increased-legibility-...
Regards,Joe
I created a mock up replacing all of the fonts and timecode.
I used a font thats more legible than the ones currently used.
I posted it here.........https://feedback.techsmith.com/techsmith/topics/ive-created-a-camtasia-ui-with-increased-legibility-...
Regards,Joe
Joe, we love you because sometimes you just go out and try a solution instead of complaining about the problem (like the rest of us). Nicely done!
(Edited)
Brooks, Camtasia Technical Product Manager
I can tell you that since the release there has been action taken since the launch of this thread:
- UX research test commissioned / executed.
- March 2018 contrast of editor UI active state fonts brought into compliance with industry standards on Windows. Some color adjustments to buttons an other UI elements made.
- Spring 2019 contrast of editor UI active states and buttons adjusted on Mac (Mac had not made changes in March 2018).
- Spring / Summer 2019 research into lighter gray color with results suggesting it would not go far enough to make folks who care about chrome color happy. Decision was made to not move forward with UI chrome color changes.
I said in my last week that I support additional incremental changes starting with increasing font contrast in the UI further. I'll be pushing for additional incremental changes as we move forward.
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
- UX research test commissioned / executed.
- March 2018 contrast of editor UI active state fonts brought into compliance with industry standards on Windows. Some color adjustments to buttons an other UI elements made.
- Spring 2019 contrast of editor UI active states and buttons adjusted on Mac (Mac had not made changes in March 2018).
- Spring / Summer 2019 research into lighter gray color with results suggesting it would not go far enough to make folks who care about chrome color happy. Decision was made to not move forward with UI chrome color changes.
I said in my last week that I support additional incremental changes starting with increasing font contrast in the UI further. I'll be pushing for additional incremental changes as we move forward.
Brooks
Camtasia Technical Product Manager
Mobile Technical Product Manager
TechSmith
> I said in my last week that I support additional incremental changes
starting with increasing font contrast in the UI further. I'll be
pushing for additional incremental changes as we move forward.
You did. And I don't think that you were given enough credit for that.
It's this part... which has come up in one form or another before and which in fairness isn't down to you, that has just left me shaking my head with my jaw hanging:
> Spring / Summer 2019 research into lighter gray color with results suggesting it would not go far enough to make folks who care about chrome color happy. Decision was made to not move forward with UI chrome color changes.
This, to me, is Microsoft or Apple-Think. It means that there are one or more people in the development team who are sitting there obstinately thumping their fists on the desk and saying "NO! Customers don't know how to program. WE know what The One Right Way is! Grey text looks fresh and kewl, and we will NOT change it! We use the product for 5 minutes a week, and if it's fine for us then it should be fine for someone who needs to work on it for 4 to 8 hours per day!"
Am I for one angry about that? I was at one time (about this and some other issues) because it was making my work day more problematic than it needed to be, but as I've said previously I've largely jumped ship to Davinci Resolve. It's this mindset that helped with the decision to do that. I had come to the realisation that Camtasia was never going to be what I needed it to be, so for the most part I walked.
I'm still on maintenance with Camtasia because (a) The price is reasonable, (b) I still harbour a lot of goodwill toward Techsmith despite, not because of, developer attitudes like the one on display over this subject and (c) if I need something quickly and it doesn't have to look great, it's often faster to do it in Camtasia.
I therefore don't (at this point) register as being a lost customer. But here's a thought for your development team to chew on. In Australia there is a car company called Holden, whose roots stretch back into the 19th century. 40 years ago it was far and away the dominant player in the market.
It was shut down today.
I heard one of the managers on the radio as I was driving home. "We tried every plan we could", he said. Every plan except one, I would suggest; making cars that people actually wanted to buy. And it's for cossing sure that all of their cars were "in compliance with industry standards". If a company complies with industry standards but fails to give the customers what they need and want, well... the consequences of that are worth mulling over at the next TS round table, I would suggest.
That's my $0.02, aside from a personal thanks for being willing to engage with the community, despite the brickbats.
You did. And I don't think that you were given enough credit for that.
It's this part... which has come up in one form or another before and which in fairness isn't down to you, that has just left me shaking my head with my jaw hanging:
> Spring / Summer 2019 research into lighter gray color with results suggesting it would not go far enough to make folks who care about chrome color happy. Decision was made to not move forward with UI chrome color changes.
This, to me, is Microsoft or Apple-Think. It means that there are one or more people in the development team who are sitting there obstinately thumping their fists on the desk and saying "NO! Customers don't know how to program. WE know what The One Right Way is! Grey text looks fresh and kewl, and we will NOT change it! We use the product for 5 minutes a week, and if it's fine for us then it should be fine for someone who needs to work on it for 4 to 8 hours per day!"
Am I for one angry about that? I was at one time (about this and some other issues) because it was making my work day more problematic than it needed to be, but as I've said previously I've largely jumped ship to Davinci Resolve. It's this mindset that helped with the decision to do that. I had come to the realisation that Camtasia was never going to be what I needed it to be, so for the most part I walked.
I'm still on maintenance with Camtasia because (a) The price is reasonable, (b) I still harbour a lot of goodwill toward Techsmith despite, not because of, developer attitudes like the one on display over this subject and (c) if I need something quickly and it doesn't have to look great, it's often faster to do it in Camtasia.
I therefore don't (at this point) register as being a lost customer. But here's a thought for your development team to chew on. In Australia there is a car company called Holden, whose roots stretch back into the 19th century. 40 years ago it was far and away the dominant player in the market.
It was shut down today.
I heard one of the managers on the radio as I was driving home. "We tried every plan we could", he said. Every plan except one, I would suggest; making cars that people actually wanted to buy. And it's for cossing sure that all of their cars were "in compliance with industry standards". If a company complies with industry standards but fails to give the customers what they need and want, well... the consequences of that are worth mulling over at the next TS round table, I would suggest.
That's my $0.02, aside from a personal thanks for being willing to engage with the community, despite the brickbats.
@Mal Reynolds,
How difficult did you find it to switch from Camtasia to DaVinci Resolve? I've been looking for alternatives to Camtasia and am considering making the same move.
Thanks,
David
How difficult did you find it to switch from Camtasia to DaVinci Resolve? I've been looking for alternatives to Camtasia and am considering making the same move.
Thanks,
David
Hi David,
One thing that I should be really clear about is that Davinci Resolve is an editor only. It's NOT a direct replacement for Camtasia since it lacks a recorder. For that I mostly use OBS these days, though increasingly I'm working with live action video as well.
As an aside, that also means that the recordings don't track the cursor the way Camtasia trec recordings do. For me that has never been an issue because (a) I've tried SmartFocus before. Ain't doing THAT again. (That may be a bit unfair. I'm sure it has its uses, but I prefer to manually regulate the part of the screen that I'm highlighting. SmartFocus never got it "right", in the sense of "what I wanted".) And (b) to me the yellow highlight dot that you can attach to the cursor head looks painfully amateurish, and I never use it.
It's a change that I wouldn't necessarily recommend for casual users. Camtasia is IMHO the most intuitive, easiest to use screen recording / video production software out there, or at least one of them. And certainly it's far more cost effective than the "Which nostril would you like to pay through?" Captivate from Adobe. (I haven't used Captivate for a lot of versions, but at the time I was using both and thought that Camtasia was the better software as well.)
For me, where Camtasia failed badly was as I progressed through the power user level where it just wasn't cutting it. No JKL editing, no multiple playback speeds in editor (and no, applying clip speeds is NOT a solution), no scripting, amateurish looking stretchy-squishy fonts and graphic objects, and the audio, oh gods the audio...
I would say that it took me only a couple of weeks to get up to speed with Davinci. I found it to be pretty intuitive as well though you have to be prepared to open your mind to look at its way of working, especially with the animation / compositing tool called Fusion. It uses a node-based rather than a layer based approach. Some people who are used to the latter find it difficult to grasp, but really if you watch the training videos and are prepared to let go of existing ways of thinking, nodes become quite instinctive.
I had attempted to learn (and struggled with) Premiere Pro in past years, in part because of a UI design which seemed to be built around the concept of "So if you remember that there's this two pixel wide toggle here, you'll find that there is a button which doesn't really look like anything that will do this obscure thing". As for After Effects... {eye roll}. These days I detest Adobe because of their "our hand in your pocket for life" payment model and have kicked most of their products to the kerb (and will kick Photoshop to the same place when I'm comfortable enough with Affinity) but even leaving that aside I found Davinci to be much, much easier to really get to perform compared to the Adobe options.
"EasiER" does not necessarily mean "easy", though. It's a move that you would need to be serious about. With the amount of video production that I do these days, it was well worth it especially after I took the time to set up standardised Fusion animations and so on. I haven't yet gotten my head around Fairlight and still do my audio editing in Audacity... but that's mainly because I was pretty much forced to get well familiar with Audacity from my Camtasia days because {cough} it's not like I had much of a choice, back then.
For someone who might do a couple of videos a month on the other hand, the move would probably be overkill. I f you do a video, not do one for 3 months, then come back to do another one, it will probably be easier to get back up to speed in Camtasia than in a power product like Davinci.
I'm not going to stand in TS's forums and promote another product, but equally I'm not going to stand here and uncritically sing their praises and say "No siree, nothing wrong with Camtasia, there are WORKAROUNDS for that, praise Techsmith", in part because that role is already filled. It's AN option, but there will still be cases where Camtasia is a better one, despite its limitations. Techsmith's problem will be if someone (and I have a couple of names in mind) notices those limitations and sees an opportunity.
THAT is why the customer, not the "industry standards", needs to be king.
(Edited)
Hi, Mal. Thanks for such a detailed reply!
My thinking is that I'll take the time to learn DaVinci's model once I've finished my current project, an online course with about 60 short videos, which should be in a couple of months. Camtasia is my first video editor, and although it is well-suited to the kinds of videos I'm planning to do, it has not been stable, and there are limitations I'm not happy about. I don't do much screen recording, so if I need to do that, I still have Camtasia to do that with.
I have no idea what a "node" is, whereas layers were a familiar concept from Photoshop, but I don't have a problem with learning new concepts and new tools, and I'd rather not have to struggle with weird crashes and workarounds when I begin my next course. I'm also planning to expand beyond course making, so I want to be using an editor that will follow me wherever I need to go without, as you say, constantly having to find workarounds.
Thanks again for your thoughtful response,
David
My thinking is that I'll take the time to learn DaVinci's model once I've finished my current project, an online course with about 60 short videos, which should be in a couple of months. Camtasia is my first video editor, and although it is well-suited to the kinds of videos I'm planning to do, it has not been stable, and there are limitations I'm not happy about. I don't do much screen recording, so if I need to do that, I still have Camtasia to do that with.
I have no idea what a "node" is, whereas layers were a familiar concept from Photoshop, but I don't have a problem with learning new concepts and new tools, and I'd rather not have to struggle with weird crashes and workarounds when I begin my next course. I'm also planning to expand beyond course making, so I want to be using an editor that will follow me wherever I need to go without, as you say, constantly having to find workarounds.
Thanks again for your thoughtful response,
David
ChrisM
OK...one last time...I am not elderly, I am not even "old" and the dark interface is detrimental to my work performance. The only reason I still use it is there is was no alternative. I have been talking with Adobe and pushing for their Captivate product to be part of their suite of product offered in the Creative Cloud. As soon as it is, if the interface in Camtasia is still dark, you can bet I am going to switch in a hot minute.
Dear TechSmith, I see your market dominance deteriorating and has everything to do with the new interface and your refusal to change it.
Sorry to hijack your post Kathryn...
Kathryn Grant
I know it can feel like "big business" doesn't care, but I think Brooks is trying to change that perception. If TS can come up with a simple solution--even a light gray alternative--that would be enough for me. It will be interesting to see how things go!
Rick Stone
I'm an Adobe Captivate user myself. I was a Certified Adobe Instructor for Captivate for a number of years.
Personally, I'd be shocked if Adobe were to include it in their Creative Cloud. It seems to be a kind of niche product that not everyone would use. Although it *IS* (or maybe WAS) actually part of a couple of suites they offer.
I'm not sure if they are still offering this, but at one point Captivate was part of something called the "eLearning Suite". And it's still part of something called the "Technical Communications Suite".
Cheers... Rick :)